FAQ: Stuffing Box II

Do I Stay with the conventional stuffing box or go with a PSS or PYI Seal Installations?

Original Message:   Subj: Stuffing box
Looking for opinions on which way to go on a stuffing box repack. The boat is on the hard for the winter and I am having the yard replace the cutlass bearing. I talked to the mechanic about installing a PSS seal while the drive shaft was out. He suggested that I stay with the regular flax packing. I guess I didn't explain to him HOW MUCH I HATE seawater in the bilge. I know I'm probably opening up a can of worms, but before they start the work I would love to hear from anyone with pro's and con's and your preference. Thanks in advance.
Baysalr, C-36, Deltaville,VA, jwoodbm@att.net

Below you will find positive comments on both the PSS Seal Installation and the conventional stuffing box but first…….

WET BILGE In salt water I personally can't understand why anyone would want that corrosive, smelly, slime producing stuff sloshing around in their bilge? Fresh water is different.

DRY BILGE The greatest advantage of a dry bilge is to be able to spot leaks. They can come from salt or fresh water - use the taste test. Once you've determined salt or fresh water you can start to the track the leak down. Another real help is which of the 4 compartments of the bilge is the water from the leak in? (i.e. a salt water leak from the stuffing box will first show up in the aft compartment. A salt water leak found in the aft center is probably from the back siphoning of the electric bilge pump exit if you have been heeled so that exit could be under water especially in a following sea). Another example for the MKIs with a keel-stepped mast, is rainwater wicking down the spinnaker halyard to the inside of the mast and then first into the aft center compartment. The leak potential is there - thru hulls, clamps, hoses, water tanks & on and on, but none are initially noticeable as a SMALL leak - with a wet bilge.
APACHE #788, ronphylhill@erols.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
Salr, We have a PSS Seal, and love it. Whatever you decide, the time to do it is while the shaft is out.
Tony Toskas , Winch Wench C-30 #2566, tookas@yahoo.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
Go ahead and replace with the PSS shaft seal - you will love your dry bilge! As a matter of fact just do the installation yourself and tell the yardman to stand aside.
Max, mxmunger@crosslink.net (Max Munger)

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
Check it out at: http://spursmarine.com
I installed the PSS Shaft Seal on my 320 2 years ago and my only lament is I didn't do it sooner! Bone dry bilge...love it.
Orlando, C320 #112, cuba libre 2, Marina del Rey, CA, tookas@yahoo.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
I have had the PSS seal for the last year and a half. Only way to go.
Mike Crosa, S/V Skeddadle, 1987 C30 TRBS #4877, Miami, FL, mcrosa@mindspring.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
I have the PSS shaft seal and I believe that it is one of the best additions I made to the boat. It absolutely DOES NOT LEAK!!! Now if I had realized how much water the roller furling mast lets in, but that's another story!
Gary L. Harkins, HTYCGARY@aol.com, C400 #140 "Cygnus", Harbour Towne Yacht Club (Muskegon, Michigan)

Subj: RE: Stuffing box
From: gkarda@gte.net (george karda)
Safety item to prevent stuffing box PSS seal or regular stuffing box nut: Place a clamp on shaft up against seal or nut to prevent the item from Backing off completely. If it should get loose the seepage would be Acceptable and the bilge pump could handle the seawater until you can safely make repair.
Regards, George karda, C320 #641

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
On our last boat, a TMI (Chrysler) 30 I installed a shaft seal from PYI and it was the greatest....no more water, PERIOD! In Sept. 99 we bought Wind Dancer, C320 #394 and I am thinking seriously of installing a PYI seal on it. The only thing you need to be careful of is that when you do your spring launch that you burp the air out so there water on the seal for cooling. This takes 1 second. Probably the best $200 I spent on the boat. Only wish I had done it years earlier.
R. Winkler, Milwaukee, philos@execpc.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
Go with the PSS seal... I have it on my 27 for four years now and love it, don't have it on my 36 yet but will at next haul-out.
Now the down side... Three years ago on a Sunday Morning in January, was motoring out of the marina and heard a loud BRRRRAP noise, shut engine down and started checking every thing, under, in, and around the boat for cause of noise, Found nothing. I restarted the engine and it ran fine, put it in gear and every thing seemed fine. We then hoisted the sails and shut the engine down. After a few minutes I turned the wheel over to a friend and went below to get our lunch. I noticed the carpet was wet and the bilge pump was running... and loosing the race... Shut all thru-hulls and the water was still coming in... I then started tracing the flow, back under the engine to the shaft.
What I found was a bunch of wire and plastic (what was left of the bilge blower hose) wrapped around the shaft and PSS seal with a rather large flow of water pouring out of the mess. I grab the pliers and start cutting and pulling wire and plastic out to get to the source of the water. When I get through the mess I discover the rubber bellows of the PSS seal was ruptured. Stuffed rags in the shaft log to slow down the flow and sailed back to the marina and into my slip.
The blower hose had somehow fallen and got caught on the spinning shaft. The BRRRRAP noise when it was pulled out. It then caught the hose clamp on the PSS bellows and caused it to spin with the shaft, twisting it into. Called PSS Monday morning and had a new PSS seal on Tuesday morning.
My bilge has been dry for three years now. Go with the PSS seal...
Jim, C-27 Ambitious, Flowery Branch, Ga., C-36 Bonaventure, Brunswick, Ga, chiefjimv@juno.com

Subj: RE: Stuffing box
A lot of people really love the PSS dripless seal, but personally, I don't think dealing with a conventional stuffing box is all that big a deal. Once properly set up and adjusted, they're relatively maintenance free for a fairly long period of time, and don't really drip very much water at all. Back on my C34, I probably repacked the box every second season, and maybe adjusted it once or twice during the season. So far, on my C400, it's been two years since I've touched it. I'll probably repack it this spring, if for no other reason than to break away the corrosion on the nuts!
As for the dry bilge thing, I'm not concerned about it. With a keel-stepped mast, more water probably enters via openings in the mast when raining (at the top, and also dripping in the halyard exits, etc) than will ever drip out the stuffing box. If your mast is deck stepped, maybe it's possible for the bilge to be utterly dry all the time... I honestly don't know. In my case, I'll hear the bilge pump operate perhaps once a day, two or three times if it's raining or windy. It's kind of reassuring, in a sense... if I had a dry bilge, I'd be dumping a bucket of water into it, once a month, just to make sure the pump was still functional!
Norm Bernstein, 'Amoreena', C400 #105

Subj: RE: Stuffing box
I FULLY concur with Norm. I repacked my ancient A-4 shaft a few years back on my C-27 and have never had a problem with it since. I do check it out from time to time, but I never see more than a little dampness back there and only when we're motoring. It's bone dry at anchor. In fact, I like Norm's suggestion to repack it occasionally just to disturb the corrosion. Besides, the Braided Belgian Flax Packing instructions specifically state "Always allow some water to drip on to the packing while under way." They also warn AGAINST "overtightening."
The stuff comes in 24" rolls and costs between $4 - $11 per roll depending on the diameter of the flax you'll need subsequent to consulting your Owner's Manual.
Good luck, SL Collins, sandbarsam@homemail.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
I was considering a PSS seal also but I stayed with the standard traditional approach. The determining factor was a packing material that I think I learned about from this list. It's made by the same company that makes gore-tex, the apparel liner. This material is much more durable than standard flax and has a greater heat tolerance. As a result, you can tighten down the box to make it virtually drip-free (The marketing materials say it is totally drip free but I have adjusted mine to allow a drop of water in every few minutes out of fear of scoring the prop shaft with too great a heat build up. I'm probably being overly cautious.) and the material is good for three seasons. I have had it in for two seasons and have not had to adjust it at all which suggests to me that it's holding up as promised.
If you're interested, I'll dig out the info on the stuff and send it along.
Jim Overend, C36 #769 "Carrie B", jimo1999@yahoo.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
Check out the dripless packing at West Marine (about $55 total). I put this in 2 years ago and not a drop of water since. It's a simple replacement for conventional flax packing and just as easy to install.
Lorne Hamilton C30 #2700 Lake Huron, Harrisville, Mi, lthamilto@netzero.net

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
You can get the green Teflon flax stuff at west marine for about $50. You still need some regular flax also. Anyway this will last for several years and is also dripless. No hardware changes and much cheaper than 200.00 or so for a new dripless model.
Richard, r_clack@hotmail.com

Subj: RE: Stuffing box
I can confirm that on my C34. When I had the boat lifted out, I used a sponge to get all the water out of the bilge except for the last few drops. It was dry. Two weeks later, it was filled up to the height that the bilge pump drains it to -- that is, it took on enough water that the bilge pump dumped some of it overboard into the parking lot.
Fortunately, I don't get real excited about the idea of a dry bilge, because dripless packing isn't going to help me get there. :)
ms2@chokey.mo.md.us

Subj: RE: Stuffing box
I wouldn't get too concerned about the number of drips as long as it is reasonable-12 per minute or under. Even in my 1999 Catalina manual, in three different places it lists the number of drips per minute differently. The lowest listed was 1-2 per minute; the highest was 10 per minute if memory serves me correctly.
Tom Haevers, C-36 1733, haeverst@uwgb.edu

Subj: RE: Stuffing box
If you run it hot and dry the stuffing will stick to the shaft when it stops. Next time the shaft turns it will tear pieces off the packing. Do this a few times and it will leak big time. The tighter you go the drippier it gets. Sound familiar? (Be nice).
Charlie Pearsall, C34 Delirious, cpearsall@smcplus.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
I was always told to let it drip when under power to cool the shaft but was never sure how much validity or importance to place on it? Anyway, I have the drip by default so I never worried too much about it.
Dan Wilcox ~ Carolina Beach, NC, Blown Away ~ 77' c30 ~ #773, dan@beachpc.com

Subj: RE: Stuffing box
Something I haven't seen mentioned is that the packed stuffing box has to leak enough to lubricate the shaft/seal. It should not be hot to the touch after the prop has been turning for 15 minutes. I shoot for one drop every seven seconds WITH THE PROPELLOR TURNING. It might not drip at all when out-of-gear.
Charlie Pearsall, C34 Delirious, cpearsall@smcplus.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
I replaced the flax in my stuffing box last year for the first time since I had the boat. I attempted to get the nuts adjusted to have the required 4-10 drips per minute. Sometimes it would drip, others times it didn't. I'd get it adjusted right in forward only to have the number of drips change after putting the engine in reverse. Seems like every time we motored, either my wife or kids were at the wheel while I had my head stuck in the engine compartment. Am I being anal-retentive or is "close enough" the rule of thumb here. Besides, after getting this right, I'll figure out something else to worry about on the boat.
As a side, I never did get the thrill of a dry bilge. I always figured they were made to hold water so then damn-it, mines gonna have water in it. :)
John Wamboldt, C27 #6287, ZuZu's Petals, Lake Michigan, JWambo8566@aol.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
Norm,
We now have dust in our bilge normally. It doubles as our shower sump so it gets cleaned once in a while. It took a couple of years to get her this tight. She had three leaks no one could find when she was new. Now it's very reassuring to check the bilge and find dust. It's a very positive indicator that all's well. Otherwise, I guess I'd have to put a cycle counter on my bilge pump to have the same level of confidence.
We actually put in the drip less packing to prove the other leaks were there. I did still have to trace them myself. Amazing what you can do with water-soluble markers or dry cleanser trails to back track a drip.
One hard lesson was the need for a filter in-line with the bilge pump. A fiberglass chard got sucked into the pump during a particularly rousing SF Bay sail. My guess it was rough enough for the bilge water to really slosh around down there. When we docked the pump came on and never shut off. All the chard had to do was hold a little rubber pop-it valve up and the bilge pump runs but moves no water. I installed a raw water filter inline.
Phil Agur, C270 LE #184 Wing Tip, pjagur@directcon.net

Subj: Re: Stuffing box
Drippless Packing Gland I have never been an advocate of the billows type. Primarily, because if there is a fracture (for whatever the reason) in the billows, you have an immediate emergency. To fix a regular stuffing box leak you can use extra packing, strips of rag, or shoe laces to jam in so you can get back to port. In fact you can completely redo your gland (in the water) with regular flax packing - see C34 Tech. section in the upcoming May 2000 Mainsheet.
I've used "Drippless Packing" for the past 10 seasons and think it's great. I've changed it once, but that was my fault because I just had to see how it was doing. It was doing well until I screwed with it.
Ron, APACHE #788, ronphylhill@erols.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
Bob,
FUNNY you should ask! THIS is what these "lists" SHOULD be all about: May I respectfully recommend Boat/US's (and I suppose other) marine supply shops SELL these goofy looking "flax picks and pullers" for JUST this problem!
Flax Pick: Item 282111, Boat/US $6.95
Flax Puller: Item 393080, Boat/US $10.95
Good Luck, Sam Collins, C-27 #2117, "Blue Dolphin", sandbarsam@homemail.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
I've always been successful getting it out with a very small flat-bladed screwdriver, holding the tool nearly parallel with the shaft, and scraping the stuff out as if the screwdriver were a chisel. It always came out in nearly one piece... just pulled it out and scraped a bit more to make sure the box was empty before re-stuffing it.
Norm Bernstein, 'Amoreena', C400 #105, msys@marisystems.com (Marisystems Inc.)

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
I use an awl, bent at the end to hook the stuff out. Cheaper than the tool at West Marine, and easier to use since the spirals on the extractor are nearly too big to fit down the side of the stuffing cap on my C30. Also I used the "green stuff" dripless packing last year from WM and it worked great.
bwheeler@clark.net (Brian Wheeler)

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
Get the largest fish hook you can find (preferably stainless steel, size 5/0) and straighten it out in a vice (some break, some don't. Please wear eye protection). Poke & pull as required to remove the old flax.
Charlie Pearsall, cpearsall@smcplus.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
Norm, Bob,
It depends on how old and badly deteriorated the flax is. Mine, like Norm's, came out no problem with a skinny long shafted electrician's screwdriver. BUT we had a guy in our yard that had several LAYERS of old flax PACKED rock solid real deep in the fitting that was "shiny" and almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a hold of. THAT'S when we went ahead and bought the $6.95 pic I mentioned in the other post with the sharp point and a curved end. Charlie Pearsall's fishhook will probably work the same way too.
SLCollins, sandbarsam@homemail.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
Hi all, I tried using a wine opener with great success, very easy and you probably have one already.
Adam, a-ellis@email.msn.com (a-ellis)

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
I picked up a bunch of different size and shaped dental picks at a local flea market - they cost a buck a piece, are made out of stainless steal don't rust, pretty strong and designed to work in small places - you can even put an edge on the scalers and they'll cut through the flax -
Dave, Second Wind, dpbcc@galaxy.net

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
I had the same problem last year with VERY HARD PACKED flax. Tried everything, including: the flax extractor (it snapped off from the strain), ...an awl with a bent tip (it only pulled up little threads of flax but couldn't get the main strip), ...a dental pick borrowed from a dentist friend (it broke), ...a small flat-blade screwdriver (couldn't get it under the flax), ...
Finally used needle-nosed pliers, the kind with the tips bent at about a 70-degree angle. I was able to drive the tips into the flax and rip it out. This tool also gets the flax out without scoring the shaft!
Hope this helps.
Victor, C27 "Prudence", Wickford, RI, vwm@gis.net

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
FYI, I tried one of the West flax pullers - I can't recall which one – and it bent like aluminum foil. I ended up using a 3" drywall screw, which worked well.
Jim Overend, C36 #769 "Carrie B", jimo1999@yahoo.com

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
Last fall, when we hauled, I decided to repack the stuffing box just for the hell of it (never did that before). After trying to get the old flax out several different ways, I finally gave up. In the spring I'm going to try a small dry wall screw and see if that works. If that fails, then I guess I'll break down and get one of those flax extractors that are is the catalogues. I'm sure that someone out there has a neat little trick for extracting old flax.
Bob, G.V.Black C36 MKII #1720, ctaylor@george.lhi.net, Rogers City,MI

Subj: Re: Stuffing box, Flax Pullers
As far as Packing Removal Tools? Most are too large to fit or not strong enough. I made my own out of a coat hanger. Just a thought.
Ron, APACHE #788, ronphylhill@erols.com

Important: The opinions expressed here are those of the individual contributors to this page, and not those of the Catalina 34 National Association or Catalina Yachts, Inc. Additionally, this material has not been reviewed by Catalina Yachts, Inc. for technical accuracy. This page's maintainer cannot guarantee the accuracy of this information or the desirability of suggested modifications or upgrades. Please obtain assistance from a competent marine mechanic or boatyard prior to making any significant modifications to your vessel.